Criticizing Nasrallah; making her an infidel

[Samerron]

ناشطة شيعية كويتية: كفّروني لانتقادي السيد حسن و"نصره الالهي"
ابتهال الخطيب تدعو لـ" فينوغراد" في حزب الله

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2008/02/06/45262.html

---

I like this article for three reasons:

1. It emphasizes on the idea that men of religion must not be men of politics. The more they are, the more the troubles arises and the society heads backwards.

2. We, Arabs, are very glad that Israel has failed in the last war in Lebanon and the Winograd Report has shows all the failure spots in the hierarchy and operation of the IDF during the war. The scary and pitiful thing is that we shouldn't be happy about this report, why? Simply, these people are identifying their mistakes by professionals and experts and will work on fixing these mistakes and not to commit them again. So, for the long run we shouldn't be happy at all. Our eyes are very narrow and short focused. Instead we should take a look at our countless mistakes.

3. I'm going to write the third reason in Arabic since it would be more appropriate for me and a practice for my Arabic writing:

الفكرة الثالثة هي فكرة التكفير, ليس في الشيعية خصوصا لكن في الدين الإســلامي عموما إذا مفكر مسلم قام و انقد بشكل حضاري و عقلاني رجل دين أو فكرة أو منهج لمصلحت الناس والمجتمع والدين و كان هذا الإنتقاد ضد المصلحة الحالية للتجمع الديني أو هناك ضعف مزاج ديني, يتحول هذا الإنسان إلى كافر بأعينهم. مع ذلك أن الهدف هو الإنتقاد البنـّاء الذي يطور التفكير في المجتمع. لكن مجتمعاتنا العربية نسيت ما هو التطور الفكري منذ قرون...

[kamal2004pa]

ok, there you go

first of all, Israel did not win the war. USSR lost 20 Million people in the Nazi attack in the second world war, but this did not mean that the nazis won, right? same with britain when 80% of london was destructed by the Nazi bombs. So, just because your country was distructed, it does not mean that you lost. so her first point doesn not hold.

Second, yes, religious leaders should NOT be political ones, aslan i believe in that out of the belief in secularism, but, lets not take things out of proportion, arab regimes and Media were able to critisize hizballah like no one did, so another thing she says is not true, that people are not able to critisize what nasrallah did, because they were able to, all of them, we heard it and saw it all over the place.

we cannot deny that what hizballah did is not of great historical importance, can we? talking about 50 tanks were blown up out of 350, i dont think the egyptian army was ever able to do that, was it?

now i dont think hizballah lost, in fact, if we measure things by the goals, didnt hizb win?? big time? BIG TIME??

akeed the committee that was formed is studying the mistakes that the army did, so that they wont fall in them again, but i dont think hizballah people are stupid either, werent they able to learn their lessons from the long time when israel occupied the south? didnt their level of fighting rise qualitativly? so i think hizballah, in terms of fighting israel, is on the right track

all of this does not mean that i agree with hizballahs other policies or ideologies, bas one should say whats its worth, and they did make a great job, that simple.

the only person to blame for the killing of the innocent people is Israel, not any one else, the murderer is responsible.

[Samerron]

To start with let me indicate that there are three main players in the game: Israel, Hizbullah and Lebanon. In the 2006 July war, Israel had a mission, and though I don’t know exactly what it is but they have showed weakness in the war and lost it. Hizbullah, as a resistance were expecting the hit from the IDF but not that large scale. Hizbullah, has fought back, showed there new power which they were eager to present and showed the whole world the strength of such a powerful, organized and effective resistance militia. Sad but true, Lebanon has lost. Villages has been destroyed, electrical plant, water plants, factories, bridges and road were all bombarded and partially destroyed, if not completely. If Lebanon was a rich company, it wouldn’t be such a big loss, but the country on a huge debt. Thousands of people died, others lost their homes and their business, investment in the country has leaped a big step backwards after it has been slowly progressing. Not to mention the oil pollution in the sea and the decrease in tourism in the country. These facts are enough to show that Lebanon as a country and nation has lost! I don’t know how much good a victory of a political party in the country while the whole nation was crippled. Hizbullah has indeed gained lots of confidence and reputation from its superb work in hindering the Israelis’ to accomplish their work, which is widely know its hard to accomplish. But also, Lebanon has indeed gone backwards in many aspects. In the end, I pity such a country in which its destiny is controlled by a portion of its people.

Concerning that Nasrallah can not be criticized; the article I presented shows how a person from the same religious sect as Nasrallah criticized Hizbullah, but received threats due to her criticism, which I guess enough said.

[kamal2004pa]

i think we are still talking about the same point, winning or losing is NOT supposed to be measured this way. thats why, as i mentioned earlier, UK won over the nazis although their losses figures were (in london alone) extremely higher thatn all of lebanon, we are talking about 80% distruction, and still they won.

When some people do not want to see the victory, they will never see it.

Plus, i want to mention again, that the overlap between religion and politics is disasterous, i do not and will never deny that, and being able to critisize Nasrallah is everone's right. I do not want to discredit the author of the article, but anyone who read any newspaper, or saw any news on the TV will notice that Hizballah was in fact attacked rationally and irrationally. I do not think that Hizballah actually hired a few people to call the author's house or something. Do you???

Maybe a few fanatics did call her house, but these are individual based actions.

So Lebanon did NOT lose, unless you want to see this way. Hizballah isnt ignoring all their battles, all their work and prank calling the author. and Israel lost!

[Samerron]

i think we are still talking about the same point, winning or losing is NOT supposed to be measured this way. thats why, as i mentioned earlier, UK won over the nazis although their losses figures were (in london alone) extremely higher thatn all of lebanon, we are talking about 80% distruction, and still they won.

I completely understand you from this point, but this form of victory here is completely out of place. England (or the Allies or USSR) in the second world war had huge loses as you mentioned and they had suffered a lot in the Second World War, but in the end they won and why? The Allies and USSR won because they have destroyed and capture the Nazi's base, they have stopped and eliminated the enemy and the source of the whole war. England didn't announce victory after they stopped the Nazi's from entering their Island, although the Nazi's tried their best to capture the Island, but England resisted and didn't claim victory, they claimed it after reaching Berlin. Russia didn't claim victory after they managed to stop the enemy at Stalingrad but they claimed victory also after reaching Berlin.

So Lebanon did NOT lose, unless you want to see this way. Hizballah isnt ignoring all their battles, all their work and prank calling the author. and Israel lost!

Rafeeki, you don't know how much damage Lebanon took and till now didn't manage to handle it. Israel is way over the consequences of the war, while we are not, we struggling in every aspect after the war. Don't consider the direct consequences of the war (though they are a lot!) but consider also after the war. All business men stopped their investment and any new investments are on hold if not cancelled, many internation students left the country and many who were thinking of coming decided not too...

I'm still insisting that Israel lost and Hizbullah won, but not Lebanon. It's no near anywhere that Lebanon won, simply in each war the players have objectives. Israel's objective have not been completely fulfilled, so they failed. Hizbullah wanted to stop and threaten the IDF, they managed and successed. Lebanon as a nation, wanted to end this war as soon as possilbe with minimum casualties but more than 1000 civilians were killed, more than 4,000 were injured and according to the Council for Development and Reconstruction in Lebanon the damage price is US $3.5 billion: US $2 billion for buildings and US $1.5 billion for infrastructure!

If you are still convinced that Lebanon had won, then I have nothing else to say...

[voidsoul]

bloody infidel, where's my AK??

On the topic of winning/losing the war... We should have the discussion as part of a larger framework (how does one "win a war"? just-war-theory maybe? the goals of the war, the stand of the "various Lebanese" (a sad phrase), and all that talk..). I think we all have the urge to get the "Israel-Hizbullah War" or "Israel-Lebanon War" discussion over-with quickly. We should either drop it, or enlarge its scope. Or, do you think it is appropriate as is?

As for the "infidel" (though I have no opinion about her really, I just like using the word, its hilarious in the world of today), may things ease up on her. People should be free to speak, and free not to listen.

[Samerron]

I agree with you Faissal. We just entered into theories of war, but I guess no need for everyone to explain or show his views in an extended manner and large framework, because that might take some time. Just present your ideas/theories and explain more on areas that others point out.

Speaking of the ringing term "infidels" there is an interesting site & forum that I bumped into some time ago, which is called Internet Infidels which is an organization adopting nontheistic agenda (agnosticism, atheism, freethought, humanism and secularism) in which I know some people here would be interested. The forum is quite huge and filled with people. ( http://www.infidels.org/ & http://iidb.infidels.org/)

[Samerron]

It seems the war didn't end, its going through another phase...
http://www.assafir.com/article.aspx?EditionId=864&ChannelId=19489&ArticleId=1719

So, can we really decide who won and lost the war?

[Napoli]

Not to sound too bleak but I don’t believe anyone can claim to have won in this misadventure.

• Israel lost the ability to live on its mythical past this time the smaller and less equipped David played by (Hezbollah) and Goliath with the superior and more advanced forces of the IDF lost. The nation of Israel exists in part on its ability to wage and win war at will with those around it. This is no longer a guarantee. The people of Israel experienced a new kind of fear. However as pointed out by Sameron they learn quickly from their mistakes and will no doubt adjust.
• Hezbollah did not act on behalf of all the Lebanese and by doing so it lost the trust of the rest of the nation. Good or bad the resultant was a direct attribute to their action therefore many detested seeing the nation’s infrastructure blown or the towns/communities razed to the ground. We now have political fjords divided with concern about Hezbollah program for war that our nation cannot afford being the host of.
• The greatest looser of all, is our little nation that had nothing to prove and received nothing in return but strife and loss of life in return. Not one inch of ground was liberated from Shib3a nor did we increase the welfare of the common citizen, instead over a (infrastructural costs aside) 1,000 civilians gave up their dreams and those of their loved ones.

To the political figure spinning war into victory is a fairly mundane task nowadays and his listeners accept willingly the cost however to a mother who lost her family it’s a much harder pill to swallow. Israel will learn mistakes of her past but Lebanon will continue to be the mother who will easily give up her children for the “victory” of war rather than for peace.


Regards,

Napoli

[Samerron]

Napoli, I agree with you on most points. Israel made mistakes and will soon adjust them while poor Lebanese are still finding a common table to meet and just choose a bloody president. Israel had come back in a period of weeks, while Lebanon is still in the endless abyss.

Although Hizbullah didn't liberate any land or any prisoner, but it showed Israel what are their capabilities. They slapped IDF and told them you won't tell order us any more, but we have our own power which it spoke in the last war. Hizbullah had gained a lot from that, and they defended themselves in this war, thus they have won their dignity and their surrvival. Instead of Israel causing a detrimental damage to Hizbullah, the retaliation bounced back towards them and relatively they were shocked by this resistance. Though Hizbullah and mostly Lebanon suffered more.

[Samerron]

Some updates:
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=1&article_id=89297

[Sponsored content]